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Tuesday Feb 10, 2009
Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection: Yes, It Has Sonic Games TooSonic is nearly 20 years old now, and he’s made appearances in nearly every conceivable type of game–side-scrolling, 3D-action, racing, sports, action/adventure, really weird 3D, puzzle, more racing, and even RPG. One might say he is a well-traveled hedgehog. Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection releases today, and lest we forget, this is Sonic’s ultimate Genesis Collection: Although he’s usually out-of-office here at Sega HQ, his office (which by the way is filled with rings) is equipped with every Sega system all the way back to the SG-1000. I think he has Tails (currently VP of Hovering and Market Research) spearheading a port of Sonic R for it (rumors that the Tails Doll from that game was hard-coded into the motherboard of the SG-1000 years before the release of the first Sonic game are totally unsubstantiated). So his presence here at Sega is what one might call significant.
Sonic 3′s design isn’t a lot different from Sonic 2, at least not as dramatically as Sonic 2 was an upgrade of the first Sonic. There’s a lot in the details, though–level design is at a pinnacle for Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles, and the simple addition of different shield types added a huge amount to the games. If you think that all Sonic needs is a pair of sneakers, you’ve obviously never tried the bubble shield. And as in Sonic 2, the work-to-payoff ratio of taking the time to collect all the Chaos Emeralds in the bonus stages to become Super Sonic is one of the most awesomely satisfying payoffs in all of video games. Also: We’ve gotten comments & questions from die-hard Sonic fans about this collection, and whether Sonic 3 + Knuckles would be included, or just the separate games. For those who don’t know: the original games were intended to be part of the same cart, and Sonic & Knuckles was eventually released as a “lock-on” cartridge, that could be locked-on to Sonic 3 and Sonic 2 so that Knuckles would be playable in those games. Locking Sonic & Knuckles into any other Sega Genesis game allows access to the game Blue Sphere, based on the Sonic bonus levels. This ‘Sonic 3 + Knuckles’ feature wasn’t included for Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection. I spoke with the producer for Sonic’s UGC, Ethan Einhorn, who definitely understands the nature of hard-core Sonic fandom. We had a good conversation about the game, and I got Ethan’s official explanation for why Sonic 3 + Knuckles wasn’t included: “To shore up the development time necessary to get “Lock-On” to work in Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection, we would have had to drop all of the bonus games from the disc. Faced with an either/or scenario, we chose to retain our title lineup in its entirety.”
In other words, that would have meant losing the Sega Master System ports (Phantasy Star and Golden Axe Warrior) and all of the arcade ports. Just throwing an old ROM into a game is one thing, but combining lots of different types of ROM technology (arcade, Genesis, Master System) and making them all work together is another, and to get the game out with this lineup, that’s what needed to happen. Lock-on was a cool feature but I love seeing the games here regardless; the levels for Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles are fantastic, definitely at the height of game design for side-scrolling action games. These games were made near the end of the Genesis’ heyday, and showcase the best combination of speed, sound, graphics, and gameplay available for the system. This collection has a lot of terrific games from all over Sega history, and they’re all worth investigating in their own way–but it’s always nice to revisit the best that a beloved system was capable of.
Posted by Edward@Sega in General, Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection on 4:40:12PM Feb 10, 2009
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Comment # 1
“In other words, that would have meant losing the Sega Master System ports (Phantasy Star and Golden Axe Warrior) and all of the arcade ports.”
I think that’s easy enough to understand. Personally, I’ll take a few extra games in sacrificing one.
“but it’s always nice to revisit the best that a beloved system was capable of.”
So true.
Posted by Wisa on February 10th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Comment # 2
A good developer would have said sorry and started on a patch to fix it for everyone. Now I do not even feel like buying it.
And I really wanted to go to the fantasy zone with Space Harrier…
Posted by Kogen on February 10th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
Comment # 3
Patch in Sonic 3 & Knuckles and maybe people won’t be upset (and it would certainly make me want to go and pick up the game). As it stands, I’ve lost my biggest reason to purchase the game. I already own many Sega Genesis and Sonic collections, so having them all in one place would have been a luxury. Unfortunately that does not seem to be the case.
Posted by SonicTHP on February 10th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Comment # 4
Please put Knuckles in Sonic The Hedgehog 2 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles as downloadable content in Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection!!
Posted by Jonny Modlin on February 10th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
Comment # 5
It’s good to see I’m not the only person who will not be buying the collection because of the lack of lock-on games.
Posted by Lifeforce on February 10th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
Comment # 6
I don’t understand what stopped Backbone from pre-merging the ROMS so no lock-on emulation would have to be coded. S3&K ROM couldn’t be more than 3MB in size, plus some cover art (maybe 4MB for high quality), times three lock-ons comes to a whopping 21MB. The way I see it there is only one reason Sega would allow this: they plan to release S3&K on XBLA/PSN or pay for DLC both of which is a sucker punch to the fans and gains Sega more money. If the lock-on games aren’t patched in for free (after all the collection has S&K and lock-on was a huge part of that game) then it just goes to show that Sega has no issue with ignoring their fans. It’s still a very impressive collection, but it’s such an insult that Sega would let Backbone hack up S&K I’ll have to pass.
Posted by Why do you hate us on February 10th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Comment # 7
Lock-on technology is nothing more than having two ROMs act as one. Countless video game emulators have proven this.
There is no “added work” to support lock-on technology. Sorry, but Sega is spreading misinformation, and I really hate to be the person that has to point that out.
If Sega wants to challenge me on this, I’d be happy to publish a white paper on lock on technology. It’s nothing more than two ROMs put together. Any modern Genesis emulator supports that, including the one used in Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection.
Posted by Christopher Price on February 10th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Comment # 8
Aw, man. No “Sonic 3 & Knuckles,” even after all these years??? What a drag.
Considering this is “*Sonic’s* Ultimate Genesis Collection,” I’d rather lose all the bonus games for “Sonic 3 & Knuckles.” 
On the other hand, it’s got every classic “Phantasy Star” released in North America. Oooh, a dilemma. I hate dilemmas.
Oh, well. Here’s hoping in the future, Sega will make “Sonic’s ULTIMATE Ultimate Genesis Collection,” or something, with “Sonic 3 & Knuckles,” “Sonic CD,” and even “Sonic Spinball.” XD Thanks a lot for answering that burning question, Edward.
Posted by Deco Bryl on February 10th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
Comment # 9
This isn’t going to go away PR, I know you may not approve all comments here… but we’ll be letting Sonic Team in Japan know about this:
http://www.centralgadget.com/sega-axes-sonic-3-knuckles-from-latest-collection-lies-about-reason-559/
(Yes, we have a Japanese desk, and they won’t be happy to hear over there that SoA PR isn’t telling the truth to their most loyal customers over here).
If you just want to sell S2&K and S3&K to as DLC content, fine… but don’t lie about it. Maybe Backbone lied to you guys in the press team… but it’s Sega’s job to admit that there was clearly untrue information passed down. Now you know, now it’s time to admit and clear the air.
Posted by Christopher Price on February 10th, 2009 at 11:42 pm
Comment # 10
please release it on XBLA
Posted by tropicali on February 11th, 2009 at 12:18 am
Comment # 11
Oh please. S3&K is 4MB. combine that with the upscale filter you’re using and put it on as a seperate ROM and it’s trivial to do – and I speak as a programmer. That excuse is pure rubbish and you know it. S3&K isn’t on here purely as a cashgrab on XBLA/PSN/VC later on and we all know it.
Posted by Overlord on February 11th, 2009 at 1:28 am
Comment # 12
Well, that’s a shame, it would’ve been cool if Sonic & Knuckles had it’s lock-on feature.
Might as well take out Sonic & Knuckles and put another Sega title.
But if they can patch that up. It won’t be a huge biggie.
I’m exicted about this release and it’s only 10 days away.
Posted by Carlos on February 11th, 2009 at 6:01 am
Comment # 13
Lock on doesn’t need anything to actually work. It’s a simple matter of plugging in RAM between the ROM for Sonic 2 and Sonic 1. Sonic 3 & Knuckles is no more a matter than marging the two ROM together.
The ROMs also exist within Sega’s Archives as they were used in Mega Collection. The emulator they’re using here is likely the same, and any emulator that can play other Genesis games can play S3K. It’s just another ROM, nothing special. And as a game that never had unique box art, manual or anything else, it could’ve just been hidden away in the menus under S3K, literally requiring the ROM to be added to the disc and one menu option added.
I’m sorry guys, but I don’t buy it for a second.
Posted by Densai on February 11th, 2009 at 6:48 am
Comment # 14
Well, that answer’s a bit rubbish. I agree with everyone else here. You guys should definitely patch the game in. It really is embarrassing that the “ultimate” genesis collection is missing one of the most innovative games that sega ever released. And really, if it was that hard to put lock-on in the game, then how do you explain its appearance in the mega collection?
In the future, please don’t bother giving us your public relations spin on things. We don’t buy into it. Just patch our game instead.
Posted by Thomas on February 11th, 2009 at 7:04 am
Comment # 15
How on Earth would putting in three more ROMs mean you can’t include any bonus games? I mean, Christ, all you have to do is concatenate the ROM for Sonic 3 to the end of the ROM of Sonic & Knuckles. This takes all of five seconds to do!
This excuse is utter crap, to be blunt. A shame, too, since what would otherwise be a relatively competent collection is being marred by sheer laziness.
Posted by Shadow Hog on February 11th, 2009 at 9:07 am
Comment # 16
Hey Sega, want to figure out how to lock on the Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles ROMs without storing an extra 4MB ROM image? Here’s how!
/* Super amazing lock-on ROM functionality!
* This would take Sega over 9,000 hours to write,
* but any half-decent programmer could do it in 5 minutes! */
unsigned char ROM[0x400000]; // 4 MB ROM buffer.
FILE *sk = f open(“sonic_and_knuckles.bin”, “rb”); // open the Sonic & Knuckles ROM
fread(&ROM[0], 1, 0×200000, sk);
fclose(sk);
FILE *s3 = f open(“sonic_3.bin”, “rb”); // open the Sonic 3 ROM
fread(&ROM[0x200000], 1, 0×200000, sk);
fclose(s3);
Wow! Amazing! And it works, too! Perhaps you should hire better developers.
Posted by GerbilSoft on February 11th, 2009 at 9:11 am
Comment # 17
If they confirm S3&K as DLC or a patch, then I’ll be much more likely to pick up this game. As it is right now, I’m on the fence.
Posted by M. Shinobi on February 11th, 2009 at 9:20 am
Comment # 18
In my opinion, not adding the lock-on games to the collection was another poorly-made decision by Sega. Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Knuckles the Echidna in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and Blue Sphere were the games created by the lock-on device and not including them is pretty poor. In fact, they should’ve been there as default in Sonic Mega Collection.
Oh well, this pretty much is a silly collection with a filter and there’s so many compilations so screw it.
Posted by SOTI on February 11th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Comment # 19
“To shore up the development time necessary to get “Lock-On” to work in Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection, we would have had to drop all of the bonus games from the disc. Faced with an either/or scenario, we chose to retain our title lineup in its entirety.”
All the bonus content? All of it?
Please don’t insult our intelligence with a fake ultimatum when any bedroom emulation coder could tell you how simple it is to link the two ROMs. This is a fine collection but lacking a feature that was included previously in both Sonic Jam and Sonic Mega Collection(+) is simply a ridiculous ommision that needs to be corrected.
Talking to your fans like they are idiots is never a smart PR move. Either be honest with us or come up with a more technically proficient lie. I want to buy your game, but I can’t support this kind of laziness out of principal. I’m not asking for Sonic CD or chaotix, I just want all my favourite Mega Drive memories in one place.
Don’t mess this up for all of us, patch in the 3 lock-on titles. Thanks. (and don’t try and charge us for those games as DLC, that would be really, really low)
Posted by Dead Man Typing on February 11th, 2009 at 9:46 am
Comment # 20
I call BS on the S3&K excuse. Saturn, PS2, Xbox and GCN did lock-on with a simple ROM of both games combined. This takes up MINIMAL space on a disc, especially a PS3 or 360 disc. And losing all bonus features? C’mon! Again, BS. It’s easy to do, they just got lazy and made up an awful excuse. Might as well retitle it “Sega’s Penultimate Genesis Collection”
Posted by Barry on February 11th, 2009 at 10:45 am
Comment # 21
It would be interesting if someone dumped the image from SUGC to find out how much space was used and what type of media was used (CD/DVD). That way we’d know how much extra space is available on the disc. Then divide the used space by the number of games, and we get a (very) rough estimate as to how much space one Genesis game takes. I’d bet there will be plenty of room for three more games. But what’s done is done. Now we just have to see if Sega cares about it’s Sonic fan base at all and fixes this mess.
When it comes right down to it, the collection is great, but why did Sega keep everyone in the dark over the lock-on games? Waiting until release day to make the announcement was a marketing disaster. Just come right out and tell the community. People would still be mad, but they wouldn’t have built up so much anticipation.
Posted by Miles on February 11th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Comment # 22
The lack of the lock-on games really stung but I still planned to pick this game up until you guys came out with this poor excuse. Time and memory constraints? What the heck guys. I’ve read the full install of the 360 version is only around 3 gigabytes. 360 discs can hold up to 9 gigabytes, and PS3′s blu-rays infinitely more. If time was an issue, why not continue working on it after the game went gold and do a day one patch as you did with the PS3 version Sega Superstars Tennis last year?
Posted by megamixer on February 11th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Comment # 23
Proof that Sega doesn’t care about the quality of this collection: The back of the box has a screenshot of Sonic 3 clearly labeled as Sonic 2. What’s next, will Sega claim N64^H^H^H^H Saturn memory cartridge emulation is impossible?
Posted by GerbilSoft on February 11th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Comment # 24
Wir mussen die…
Posted by Kogen on February 11th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Comment # 25
I have been a SEGA loyal for years and have really enjoyed Sonic Unleashed and feel that the Hedgehog Engine is the perfect formula to get Sonic back on the right track. It is games and innovation like this that renews my passion for SEGA. And eagerly look forward to the next Sonic title to feature this revolutionary engine, granted it isn’t without its flaws but it is a great step in the right direction.
Much like many here I am looking forward to Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection, since I could play all these classic SEGA games on one disc on my PS3. No longer do I have to swap between Sonic Mega Collection (either for GameCube or PS2) or the Sega Genesis Collection for PS2 to play all these great games.
The whole “lock-on” argument that it could not be done, smells fishy.. Look at Sonic Mega Collection for the GameCube and PS2, it doesn’t have “lock on” but it features as separate games Blue Sphere, Knuckles in Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles. That could have easily been ported as separate games and put into the disc.
It is hard to believe it would be due to lack of space since the Xbox 360 discs are 4.7-8.2GB and Blu-ray at 25GB-50GB so these files could easily fit in this collection.
What SEGA could have done is when the user selects Sonic & Knuckles have a option to “lock-on” and say if the user selects Sonic 3, just load up the Sonic 3 & Knuckles rom that has been featured in the Mega Collection games. By far the best collection that has been done that shows the true love of Sega was Sonic Jam on the Sega Saturn, now that is the SEGA that I grew up with and loved.
It is a good collection but it is missing Afterburner…. That was a great SEGA arcade game and is lacking from this collection, it is nice that Space Harrier is in the collection but the omission of Afterburner is a shame.
As for the omission of the “lock-on” titles: Blue Sphere, Knuckles in Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles, this collection could not be called Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection…. It should be called Sonic’s Genesis Collection instead. If we want to get technical then for a proper “Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection” this Ultimate collection would feature all the “lock-on” titles as well as the 32X games and Sega CD games.
Remember that the 32X and Sega CD were add-ons to the Genesis to lengthen the system’s overall life span and would be viewed as attachments. So that technically would make them part of the Genesis and would need to be put in a true Ultimate Genesis Collection. The only systems that were stand alone was the Sega Neptune (Genesis that could play 32x games without the adaptor) but if memory serves me correctly was scrapped. And the Sega CDX, which was a compact Genesis with Sega CD.
I have always been a supporter of SEGA and long miss the “golden age” of what made SEGA, their innovation and passion for games. I am still going to pick this collection up, but I would like to see that SEGA appease its base “the SEGA faithful” and release a patch via DLC on PSN or Xbox Live to patch the “lock-on” issue rather than be cheap in the quest for money and charge people over PSN and Xbox Live to purchase: Blue Sphere, Knuckles in Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles, to make a quick buck.
If SEGA wants the revenue to come pouring in they need to look back and see what made the company so great and love and care involved and produce a great product and I guaranty you that people will be in line for weeks to give you their money for a quality product, and the money will come in so much so that SEGA won’t know what to do with it. That is a promise….. just look at how well the SEGA Ages in Japan is handled and how well it sells. If you don’t believe me look at the Sonic the Hedgehog port for Gameboy Advance, which was just utter mistreatment of a simple Genesis port, and look at how well it sold.
SEGA has a lot of great IP, but if they mistreat their own games and think they could shove it off to make a quick buck…. SEGA could lose more customers than what they could hope to gain with making a quick buck.
“Ahhhh……..SEGA!!!” Sorry just couldn’t resist… lol.
Posted by SegaFanac on February 11th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Comment # 26
This “Edward@Sega” guy is flat out lying about the lock-on stuff. Why continue to piss off the die hard fans rather than patch in the 7(seven) lines of code it would take to satisfy them?
Posted by Mike on February 11th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Comment # 27
What a crock. This is BS and anybody who’s messed around with a genesis emulator and s&k and sonic 3 at least once in their lives know it. Yeah i’m sure slapping the combined rom (which is obviously readily available in sega’s archives not to mention the rest of the internet anyway) on the disc and creating a entry for it would take weeks of development time.
I’ll be honest, I already bought the collection knowing fully well it wasn’t included and I do enjoy it otherwise but there’s absolutely no reason why it wasn’t included unless sega’s saving it for XBLA/PSN or whatever..and in that case have a little respect for your customers and don’t lie straight to their faces about it taking ungodly hours of labor and having to remove the bonus games to do so.
Posted by Paul on February 11th, 2009 at 11:23 pm
Comment # 28
I’m sorry, but this excuse is completely BS. The “Sonic 3 & Knuckles” game is 4MB, the “Knuckles in Sonic 2″ is 3.2MB. How would that interfere with the rest of the game’s lineup?? It’s not like Sega doesn’t already have these games available on the X-Box & PlayStation platforms. “Sonic Mega Collection Plus” anyone? They could’ve easily been brought over to the newer systems.
Posted by Alex on February 12th, 2009 at 12:14 am
Comment # 29
You “mom’s basement” hackers are so cute. Do you really think that making a compilation disc for the Xbox 360 or the PS3 is as simple as dumping some ROMs to a disc?
It might be hard for you torrent-monkeys to understand, but creating a complete, functioning program for a console ain’t like burning DVD+Rs of your warez. Those seven lines of code up there may look quick and easy, but plug them into the middle of a program, and you suddenly have an extra week (or so) of bug testing.
How many of you have actually worked for a game developer? I mean, you’re all such experts; some of you must. It’s great that you’ve tinkered around with emulators and have played with IPS patches, but that’s not going to get you a job making real games.
The problems with S3&K wasn’t about disc space or developers who can’t code. It was about dev time. Any changes in code (even seven little lines) requires ample testing before the game can go to market. Clearly there just wasn’t enough time to test the games. It sucks, but is it really that big of a deal? REALLY?
There’s more than enough good games on here to make my want to buy it. All 4 Phantasy Stars>>>>>>>>>>>>S3&K.
Posted by Princess Sally on February 12th, 2009 at 1:00 am
Comment # 30
Wait, was he’s saying is that Knuckles on Sonic 3 wasn’t included, but he doesn’t say anything about the lack of lock on other titles like Knuckles on Sonic 2 or the bonus level. At least that’s his wording…
Posted by Carlos on February 12th, 2009 at 6:54 am
Comment # 31
I was going to buy the collection, even knowing BS, S2K and S3K weren´t there. But after that stupid excuse I don´t feel like it deserves it. I´ve bought some of those games more than 5 times, I´m not going to buy them again and be fooled.
This has been worse and worse after each new. No online, no leaderboards, no real artworks, just a few unlockables, no lock-on games… What do the game has after all? Easy cash?
I wish Sega stops doing bad moves on the future. Things like that makes you think why you even support them.
Posted by Knuckles MetalMind on February 12th, 2009 at 8:20 am
Comment # 32
Thanks for feeding us the lies Edward. We know you guys can do it without a hitch, considering how this was done back on the Saturn on Sonic Jam in 1997, Sonic & Knuckles Collection on the PC again in 1997 (oh wow, they been able to do lock-on emulation for 12 years now), as well as Sonic Mega Collection(+) on the GameCube, PlayStation 2 and Xbox in 2002 (2004 for the + version), and that was only 7 years ago (5 for + version).
But then again, I’m sure we will be seeing these Lock-On games as DLC added due to “overwhelming demand”, just to make more money. Isn’t that right.
Posted by Mechalon on February 12th, 2009 at 8:38 am
Comment # 33
Nobody should waste money on this game. People are better off just downloading the ROMS instead, as Sega doesn’t mind ****ing over their fans.
Posted by screwsega on February 12th, 2009 at 8:50 am
Comment # 34
Having grown up with SEGA and being a devoted customer, I expected better than this to be honest. It’s all very well for you to call people ‘basement hackers’ btw “Princess Sally”, although they are proving the point. Sega is just milking out the franchise on a basis to earn more money. I expect they’ll tease people with it for a while and eventually make it a purchasable DLC. It would explain why they’ve held off from releasing the lock-on releases via virtual console on Wii or XBLA. The old SEGA went to the edge and beyond to try bring people the best quality product they could possibly offer. I was really looking forward to this release for a majority of games, but primarily the lock-on Sonic stuff – which I’ve missed so much since the MD days. Sure I already have them but it’s an inconvenience to drag out the Sega MegaDrive when it’s in storage; along with my Saturn for Sonic Jam. I’ve probably purchased the Sonic games for MD more than 5 times on multiple formats & re-releases, and I feel we deserve better to be honest. Release it as a ‘patch’ or ‘freebie’ via DLC – as it’s the least you can do SEGA. As for this ‘sacrificing the bonus features’ thats total BS. As well as the whole ‘insufficient disk space’ junk also. Not happy at all.
Posted by Kyle on February 12th, 2009 at 9:16 am
Comment # 35
I have to preface this comment with some backstory of my Sega history. I own every Sega system and essentially gave up on you guys after the Dreamcast died because 90% of the games you started to produce were just garbage and it was even more disappointing that the high profile titles like Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog were the equivalent Sega punching me in the face and laughing after Sonic Adventure 1 and 2.
Recently, I started to think things were finally picking up. Sonic Unleashed is fantastic, it’s the best 3D Sonic game yet, even with the werehog. Valkyria Chronicles is fantastic. I read this blog, the various Sega twitter accounts and listened to Ethan Einhorn’s interview on the Retronaut’s podcast and I had a genuine feeling along the lines of “wow, Sega is actually starting to care again.”
But now we get a blatant lie about why there’s no lock-on in this package. Does this affect me personally? No, I still have Sonic Jam and a working Saturn, plus Sonic Mega Collection on Gamecube AND PS2. But lacking the lock-on feature here just smacks of laziness and disrespect to the fans.
This needs to be patched online and this collection should’ve had online multi-play as well. Reading a PR line like this:
“MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER OPTIONS. Play these classics together with a friend from the same console at home.”
… come on, that’s just pathetic. I should be able to play Streets of Rage with my friends over PSN.
Posted by Phillip Roncoroni on February 12th, 2009 at 9:23 am
Comment # 36
Sonic Jam was the best compilation simply because you could Spin Dash in Sonic 1.
Posted by Exu on February 12th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Comment # 37
“You “mom’s basement” hackers are so cute. Do you really think that making a compilation disc for the Xbox 360 or the PS3 is as simple as dumping some ROMs to a disc?
It might be hard for you torrent-monkeys to understand, but creating a complete, functioning program for a console ain’t like burning DVD+Rs of your warez. Those seven lines of code up there may look quick and easy, but plug them into the middle of a program, and you suddenly have an extra week (or so) of bug testing.
How many of you have actually worked for a game developer? I mean, you’re all such experts; some of you must. It’s great that you’ve tinkered around with emulators and have played with IPS patches, but that’s not going to get you a job making real games.”
No, a clearly-defined 7-line patch like the one I posted above does not require an extra week of bug testing. That is, unless the rest of the code is so horribly written that adding code to one file breaks the rest of the thing due to hard-coded offsets or whatever. (Incidentally, that 7-line patch was one option. The alternate option would be to just include S3&K as a separate ROM, but that leaves open the BS excuse “we ran out of disc space”.)
Also, in my experience, game developers are usually the least-skilled and crappiest programmers in the industry. Look at how many games are rushed to market with horrible bugs. (Sonic’06 and Sonic Genesis, I’m looking at you.) It also doesn’t help that most proprietary APIs (like Win32 and DirectX) are a pain to work with. Multiple calling conventions and misleading documentation doesn’t help here.
Posted by GerbilSoft on February 12th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Comment # 38
I just want to know what makes the Sonic games in this collection different from the Sonic games in Sonic Mega Collection, which does have support for Sonic 3 and Knuckles (and goes for $15 on eBay) and presumably can be played on any modern system.
I mean, since S3K could easily be implemented in that collection, or even in Sonic Jam, what was so different about this game’s development that made it impossible to do here? Why weren’t they the same team as the ones in Mega Collection? Were they, and they forgot?
If this is a string of lies I’d just like a straight answer here. I’m accepting of an excuse along the lines of “Well it’s to have a reason to keep selling these extra copies of SMC” because unlike some of my peers I’m actually accepting of the fact that a company — especially one in the red as deep as Sega tends to be — just wants to make more money. I’d like my greed and dishonesty separate, thank you very much.
Posted by muteKi on February 12th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Comment # 39
I wonder if someone linked to this page on Sonic Retro, hmm…!
Posted by Kogen on February 12th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Comment # 40
Simple solution…get over it. The lock on games are included in thousands of other games, so why not just pick one of them up as well? Or, better yet, buy a Genesis and the game seperately…it’s not that big of a deal. The lock on games aren’t even that much different from playing 3 and Knux in succession.
Posted by SupaSEGA on February 12th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
Comment # 41
SEGA. Two things that will make your fans (myself included) very happy.
1. Patch in the lock-on games for Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection
2. Either create a patch for online co-op in Valkyria Chronicles, or make a sequel/new game with the engine and the co-op functionality. (Valkyria Chronicles is absolutely amazing BTW. Keep up the good work there.)
Posted by AllOrZer0 on February 12th, 2009 at 10:08 pm
Comment # 42
And I thought it was bad when SEGA kept quiet about this situation.
I, like most of the posters here, refuse to believe the BS about development time for this simple task (reasons listed by several people above). But even if it DID take so much time, wouldn’t it have been more worth it to PUSH BACK THE RELEASE DATE than to release a game that so many people are angry about? Try taking the Nintendo approach and releasing a game when it’s the best it can be, why don’t you? Delays with payoffs are worth it, believe me!
As much as I’m sure that near nobody who’s posted so far will agree with me (like…one guy, I think), I’m willing to pay a SMALL (note that word, SEGA) fee to download those games. Maybe even some other add-on games, like the ones that were in the SEGA Genesis Collection on PS2/PSP but are now missing from this one? Or Toejam & Earl, which has been MIA for far too long (outside of Virtual Console, of course, which should NOT be our only option when collections like this exist).
Simply put, this game as it was released is a FANTASTIC value. It appears to have fixed several known emulation errors from the previous Genesis collection, and the games total less than $1 a piece (which is why Virtual Console at $8 each is such a rip-off to us multi-system gamers). But add more games, maybe a 5-game pack for $5? Still a great value, and your REAL fans will be willing to pay.
The one thing you should NOT do is create a stupid issue, ignore it for a few days, lie to us about it, then refuse to reply to our calling your bluff. This article was written three days ago, yet the author hasn’t commented on it ONCE! Time to own up, guys. You can’t hide behind this one-molecule-thick lie forever (read: at all). If you’d been honest from the start, I’d have no quarrel with you. But this lie is inexcusable.
Posted by Stuffgamer1 on February 13th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Comment # 43
“I just want to know what makes the Sonic games in this collection different from the Sonic games in Sonic Mega Collection, which does have support for Sonic 3 and Knuckles (and goes for $15 on eBay) and presumably can be played on any modern system.”
There aren’t any. In both cases, it’s emulated ROMs. “Princess Sally” has no clue what they’re on about, and I bet they’re not a programmer, either.
Posted by Overlord on February 13th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Comment # 44
Hey, all. So I’m not surprised that there’s been these posts. You’re as passionate a fanbase as we have, and I wanted to address the issue of S&K lockon stuff in the blog post since I knew it was going to be an issue no matter what. I also knew not everyone would be happy with our explanation, and clearly, they weren’t
I spent some additional time talking both with Ethan (our producer here) and Max Fitzmaurice, the game’s producer at Backbone Entertainment (who helped put the game together for us). His extended quote is below, but I wanted to say a few things first — first and foremost, your concerns have been heard by the game developers and producers here. The people who matter know how you feel.
Second, while I understand you may have a disagreement with the final product, please understand — no one here wanted to “lie” to you, what we wanted to do was address a very real concern that the die-hard fans have.
Third: I want to say also that Sonic is only one part of this collection — I love seeing the Sonic games here (truly), but it’s not the only thing you’re getting. Shining Force 1 & 2, Shinobi Arcade, and all the Phantasy Star games have never been brought together before, not to mention Streets of Rage 1-3 and the rest of it. They likely never will all be together again. Some games, like Shining Force, are difficult enough to find on their own — remember, these were developed by a third party. I can’t tell you how many hours (and days) I’ve spent on those games combined, growing up with Genesis.
But Sonic is Sonic, and so we want to speak to that concern
Here’s what Max Fitzmaurice, producer at Backbone Entertainment, has to say about S&K lockon:
—>“It sounds like there’s some questions in the community about why the Sonic The Hedgehog combination games (such as Sonic 3 and Knuckles) are not included in this collection. Ethan Einhorn, our Producer for the title at SEGA of America, previously made a comment on this blog about this. The comment Ethan made is accurate: in order to finish the title in the time we had available, we needed to choose between the lock-on technology and the games provided as unlockables.
To give a little context to the situation, let me say a couple of things. The decision whether to include these specific games wasn’t based on an issue of disc space. It wasn’t based on the amount of time it would have taken to add the ROM combinations to our emulator, nor was it because of any lack of technology within our emulator. Simply put, it was the time needed to implement and test added code that was the issue. When adding any feature to a game (in the case of Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection, additional ROMs), it is not a cut-and-dried process: designing and implementing achievements and trophies; changing the user interface; creating the art assets; testing for quality assurance; patching issues within the ROMs; and adhering to platform manufacturer’s technical requirements are all factors that needed to be considered. We wanted to make sure we got a great collection into your hands as soon as possible.
Also, there’s a large difference between working with ROMs for PC emulators and creating a polished compilation disc for the Xbox 360 and PS3—much more of a difference than I can describe right now.
We’re really happy to see that the SEGA community is excited about this collection, and we hope that everyone enjoys it. We had a great time working on it, and think you’ll have a great time playing so many of your favorite Genesis games!.”<—
I hope this better explains how the game was put together, and I want everyone who’s taken the time to express their feelings on this here knows that they’ve been heard. Thank you, and good night!
-Ed
Posted by Edward@Sega on February 13th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Comment # 45
Okay, so that’s a reasonable answer. Now about that DLC idea…is it feasible? Even if it is, will you do it? I don’t mind paying a bit for the work that needs to be put in, but this collection is missing not only the lock-on games, but several others that are needed before it can TRULY be called “Ultimate.”
Posted by Zack on February 13th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Comment # 46
Is that so Backbone? Well then I think it’s time for that patch then.
Also this is upsetting. BACKBONE? Of all people? The awesome guys behind the Sonic Rivals games? (which there needs to be a third of BTW) You disappoint me with this nonsense.
Oh well, no S3K means no incentive to get his. Besides, there’s already the XBOX version of SMC+ anyway.
Posted by Aquaslash on February 13th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Comment # 47
Edward, first and foremost thank you for this clarification and explanation that I think many of us wanted to hear from the beginning.
As for the “get it into your hands as soon as possible,” it would have been nice if Sega and Backbone took more time to further flush out the game. I was able to pick it up today and I must say I am pretty impressed, with the games and how they handle on my HDTV. The sprites look very good and crisp. The Borders are a bit tacky for certain titles, but it is nice that I could custom set the borders myself to fit my screen.
The menu interface is nice and very reminiscent of the Genesis, but the collection seems to be lacking the game manuals, and it would have been nice to include artwork galleries for the various game titles. Like include the various box arts for US, EU, JAP… include some magazine ads, and various artworks from these games.
I must admit the box art, manual and disc art just ooze of Genesis coolness, but it seems that the overall games itself doesn’t ooze of the same nostalgia. Granted it is great to finally have all the Phantasy Star games on one disc, as well as Streets of Rage, but a lot of the other games are repeats from the previous Sega Genesis Collection that were on the PS2. It would have been nice for this disc to feature titles that are on the Wii virtual console that are not available elsewhere, like the Sonic & Knucles Lock-On titles, Toe jam and Earl, Alien Soldier, Afterburner, Pulse Man, Ninja Turtles Hyperstone Heist and the like.
It just seems for this game to be called Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection it just doesn’t feel anything like an Ultimate Collection, with the disc lacking manuals, artwork, and more titles from the Genesis library.
I would have gladly waited and would have paid $60 easy for such a collection and would wait… Sega and Backbone should not have rushed this and taken another month or two to fully refine the product.
It would be interesting to see if Sega plans to have more collections making it 3 volumes, say a Tail’s Ultimate Genesis Collection and a Knuckles Ultimate Genesis Collection. Use the characters to represent their “ultimate collections” would be like.
It just doesn’t ooze Genesis like it should. I have been a Sega loyal for years, not to mention a part of Sega’s past as being the 1st National Sega Dreamcast Champion, and Sega holds a special place in my life. I just want to see the passion that Sega is known for rekindled and release titles that just are the epitome of what Sega is, and I know Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection could have reached this. Yet the game just falls short in terms of the polish and treatment that such a collection of great titles that made Sega, the Sega of the 90’s and what it was to own a Sega Genesis.
As always Ahhhhh…..SEGA!!!!!
Posted by SegaFanac on February 14th, 2009 at 12:18 am
Comment # 48
Edward, we anticipated that reply. Quite simply, every technical expert out there disagrees with Backbone. The answer reads like classic backtracking.
First, we’ve looked at the Xbox 360 disc. It isn’t full.
Second, on this blog alone, the five lines of code have been posted that would have needed testing. While the argument could be made that those additional lines do indeed require additional testing… nobody can make the argument that that time would have resulted in “the loss of all other extras.”
Again, I’ll defer to the many technical experts that have been emulating Genesis for over a decade in the PC world.
To put it bluntly, I’m unimpressed by Backbone’s reply.
P.S. Edward, your assertion that there is a quality gain versus PC emulation, is a bit misleading. I won’t call it a lie, because it isn’t (I still consider Backbone’s initial statement to be one). The “advantages” in HD upscaling that are available on SUGC are readily available on PC emulators today. And, in addition, there would be no added code to apply those changes to S2&K nor S3&K. They are interpreted identically to any other Genesis game.
My position is unfazed by your reply, but I do appreciate your attempts to get Backbone to cope with reality.
Posted by Christopher Price on February 14th, 2009 at 12:41 am
Comment # 49
Well… theres always hope for DLC. DLC arts, manuals, the lock ons- if those were to come into play, then it truely would be the ultimate collection- and many fans, myself included, would gladly pay for the extras.
Posted by SMaster777 on February 14th, 2009 at 2:52 am
Comment # 50
Just quit, SEGA. Clearly, Chris here knows way more than you guys do about your consoles and games, so just fire these people and hire him.
Posted by SupaSEGA on February 14th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Comment # 51
Give it up backbone, it would take less than 5 seconds to include the lock-code. As SEGA fans, we’re being deprived of the best games they ever made. All you have to do to make everything right is to release (free) DLC patching in the small extract of code and you’re sorted. Then maybe we can adress the issue of online co-op and leaderboards.
Its a real shame that these several issues have ruined what could have been SEGA’s best release for years. I imagine that backbone did not expect the sheer magnitude of the outcry regarding the lack of lock-on content, so I’m able to forgive them for perhaps not including it initially, but if they do not soon release a patch then I think many SEGA fans will be disappointed (we’ve had to put up with a lot of shoddy releases lately). If SEGA cares about its fans or about its golden heritage, then they will have a quiet word with the lads at backbone. Sort it out.
Posted by Jakku on February 15th, 2009 at 7:49 am
Comment # 52
I’ve got all Genesis games stored in one single DVD, and they couldn’t include three more games in a Blu-Ray disc? Do they think we’re stupid or what?
Posted by Javi on February 15th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Comment # 53
It’s frustrating that Sega seem to have so little interest in making effective use of their back catalogue. While this collection is an improvement over the narrow selection of games that were included in previous attempts, the choice of games is still really scattershot. No Toejam & Earl, Landstalker, or any Treasure games? Not a single horizontal shooter? These are the games that we’d expect to see in an ‘ultimate’ collection, not lame filler like Alex Kidd, Altered Beast and Bonanza Bros. It seems that games without the word ‘Sonic’ in the title largely remain a mystery to SOA, so it’s particularly ironic to see Edward pointing out that there are non-Sonic games in the collection in comment #43.
Regarding the S&K lock-on issue:
“designing and implementing achievements and trophies; changing the user interface; creating the art assets; testing for quality assurance; patching issues within the ROMs; and adhering to platform manufacturer’s technical requirements are all factors that needed to be considered.”
There’s no requirement to add achievements. The rest of the issues are trivial, and would have been a known cost of implementing each of the other titles in the collection. So basically we have a breakdown of communication: The decision to omit the S3+SK game would have been the result of Backbone not raising this issue, or Sega failing to understand the intended purpose of the S+K game (which would be entirely consistent with their track record).
Posted by Robin on February 17th, 2009 at 4:45 am
Comment # 54
Like many have already said, it was a very stupid move on the part of Sega/Backbone to not include those titles when A)Sonic is on the name of the collection. B)The word ULTIMATE is on the name of the collection. C)The small lines of code it would have required. D)The infinite amounts of disc space available.
What it sounds like is they were probably only allowed a certain amount of games on the disc (in this case, 49) and thus chose some games over others. This would probably explain, besides the lack of lock-on titles, toejam and earl and titles from the PREVIOUS collection on PS2/PSP just a few years ago, are not in this collection.
In a collection, again, that is titled “Ultimate”.
It also sounds like, if there wasn’t a limit on how many games they put in, that they probably had a development time of, I don’t know….2-6 weeks? Cheap compilation, get it out the door quick, make a quick buck, don’t bother with barely any development time.
As it stands if anyone at Sega/Backbone can patch the frankly “MISSING” games in (because, face it, lock-on was a FEATURE of Sonic & Knuckles, not having it is having something missing that was available to you originally), they should. Prefurably as free downloadable content in respect to the fans.
If nothing is done, this is a very poor move, Sega.
Posted by NEG on February 19th, 2009 at 9:34 am
Comment # 55
@Robin: Actually, Dynamite Heddy is a Treasure game. Also, I’m a big fan of Bonanza Bros. and would hate to see it removed from the collection! I agree with everything else you said, though.
Right now, I’m annoyed that SEGA hasn’t bothered to say anything one way or another regarding the possibility of DLC, free or otherwise.
Also, for better or for worse, this game IS selling. As an employee of a gaming retail chain (three guesses which one
), I can confirm this with certainty. I have a copy myself, and enjoy the games that are included very much. Regardless of what could or should have been added, it IS a great deal, at least relative to Virtual Console downloads (not every game on this collection is even available on VC yet).
Posted by Zack on February 20th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Comment # 56
“In other words, that would have meant losing the Sega Master System ports (Phantasy Star and Golden Axe Warrior) and all of the arcade ports.”
Posted by sonic games on February 21st, 2009 at 6:10 am
Comment # 57
I was going to buy this collection just for sonic 3 & knuckles. I owned every SEGA console and handheld and deserve more.
Just lost my money SEGA. What idiots.
Posted by smoothjuk on February 24th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Comment # 58
It’s a shame that there was no Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but I’m really appreciative that you found out why AND told us, Edward.
If you’re in frequent communication with the dev team, tell them to release it as DLC!
Also, I’m crossing my fingers for “Sonic’s Ultimate Sega CD/32X/Saturn Collections.” Someone needs to make it happen!
Posted by Yamishi on March 5th, 2009 at 6:59 am
Comment # 59
I’m very upset that the three lock on games of BLUE SPHERES, KNUCKLES IN SONIC 2, AND SONIC 3 AND KNUCKLES ARE NOT INCLUDED IN SONIC’S ULTIMATE GENESIS COLLECTION! CAN YOU PLEASE RELEASE THE THREE LOCK ON GAMES OF BLUE SPHERES, KNUCKLES IN SONIC 2, AND SONIC 3 AND KNUCKLES AS A PATCH OR DOWNLOADABLE CONTENT FOR SONIC’S ULTIMATE GENESIS COLLECTION? WHEN WILL THE THREE LOCK ON GAMES OF BLUE SPHERES, KNUCKLES IN SONIC 2, AND SONIC 3 AND KNUCKLES BE RELEASED AS A PATCH OR DOWNLOADABLE CONTENT FOR SONIC’S ULTIMATE GENESIS COLLECTION? PLEASE RELEASE THE THREE LOCK ON GAMES AS BLUE SPHERES, KNUCKLES IN SONIC 2, AND SONIC 3 AND KNUCKLES IN SONIC’S ULTIMATE GENESIS COLLECTION AS DLC OR PATCH!
THANK YOU.
JONNY
Posted by Jonny Modlin on April 7th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
Comment # 60
Please release the three lock on games of Blue Spheres, Knuckles in Sonic 2, and Sonic 3 and Knuckles as Downloadable Content or patch for Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection!
Posted by Jonny Modlin on April 10th, 2009 at 8:06 am
Comment # 61
There is obviously a lot to know about this. I think you made some good points in Features also.
Posted by xboxwiimodchip on May 16th, 2009 at 8:31 am
Comment # 62
Any word on a patch for “lock-on”? Also, if that can’t be done, could you at least release Sonic 3 and Knuckles on the PS3?
Posted by Ryan on January 20th, 2010 at 1:00 pm
Comment # 63
You know i buy these collections to see hyper sonic and mess around with him. When i learned that i couldent do that, after i bought the game i was quite pissed. I really only bought it for the sonic games, everything else on the disk is garbage to me. i spent 30 bucks to see sonic in high def. I feel liked i got owned.
Posted by CloudStrife on February 6th, 2010 at 8:27 pm
Comment # 64
Will you please make an addon for PS3 for online play, and for the sonic and nuckles to be playable with sonic 3also to addon other sega games like cool spot or moonwalker or spiderman, or superman.
Posted by Goward on September 23rd, 2010 at 9:54 pm
Comment # 65
Honestly, people, did you ever even properly complete S3&K? It has tons of extra stuff in it. First off, they would have to change the boss music for the sonic 3 stages and, indeed, take out an entire boss from Launch Base Zone, then add in Hyper Sonic, Hyper Knuckles, Super Tails and all of their sprites and programming, AND make the double-game sound test. Now I’m not a hacker or a promgrammer, I prefer to do things as they were intended to be done, but even for someone as clueless as me in the programming world, it isn’t hard to see why this, and all the further additions needed for S2&K and Blue Spheres would delay the time taken drastically. Really, S3&K is completely different from S3 and S&K except for levels, most sprites, most bosses and most music. Just pay some attention before bad-mouthing something perfectly believable next time, or face being billed as a troll. Good day, sirs.
Posted by Bob the Goldfish on June 4th, 2011 at 3:50 pm
Comment # 66
SEGA please explain me how to unlock sonic 3 & knux, i loved this game specially hyper sonic,doomesday and hydrocity please tell me!!! ps. you did an awsome job with the game
Posted by rafael on May 15th, 2012 at 7:02 pm